Curse

Isileth · Oct 05, 2007, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Actually Lyra is having 7 heroes would mean no one could pug I obviousely wouldnt be asking for it. Those people paid just as much as me to be able to play how they want. Im looking for a soloution where both groups can do what they want.

As it currently stands only those who team with players are in that position. People who solo are at a disadvantage. With 7 heroes there would be less of a disadvantage while still allowing people to pug.

It will not stop people from pugging. Will some people stop pugging? Yes, yes they will. Why? Because these people would use AI if they didnt get punished for it.

So you loose people who would rather not pug, thats no great loss. All those people who enjoying pugging? Yup they will carry on pugging.

This way both groups would still be able to play the game how they want. Both groups. Not one or the other.

I have to say I feel its selfish if people are against this simply because it will take them an extra few minutes to find a pug. Yes it will impact you, but it wont be a huge gamekilling impact. It will be a small change for a huge positive benefit to another group.

bungusmaximus · Oct 05, 2007, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Why are people so afraid PUGing will end if we get 7 heroes? Do you really think the majority of the playerbase has the unlocks to give them decent builds? Or the dough to outfit them with runes?

zwei2stein · Oct 05, 2007, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Why are people so afraid PUGing will end if we get 7 heroes? Do you really think the majority of the playerbase has the unlocks to give them decent builds? Or the dough to outfit them with runes?

Runes are hardly problem, because any (non-major or non-superior) rune or insignia that you give to hero will automatically make it better than henchman, so you could just live of the land and give them just found stuff. Did that with heroes during early NF and it was workable.

Issue is not people who cant afford to rune heroes, but people who would rune them in stupid way and in make those heroes useless (multiple sup runes ...)

You having to unlock 64 skills, which is not really big deal as you should be able to do it within one day (yarly)

Big deal is giving heroes good builds, and most people would fail at that.

---

Bottom line is, people would fail with heroes because they would be bad at "designing" them, not because they cant afford to.

Verek · Oct 05, 2007, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Lets look at the basic design.
Pugging is FORCED in Presear.
-Res sig quest
-North of the wall quests
-Searing quest

only after that can you use henchmen.

I would agree with you if this concept was followed throughout the entirety of the game and also had the promotional bumph not said that you could also solo the game should you so desire.

It says something like, 'Just grab the henchmen and go!'

But they (anet) didn't and you can't. So what we're left with is player that like the social aspect of the game and want this game to focus on real player teams, frustrated that the game they want is seemingly watered down.

Then, on the other hand, the 'solo' players frustrated that their style of play seems gimped by the H/H AI, the fact that we can't customize full parties and also can't access all areas of the game.

It's seems that anet have got themselves into these problems with the best of intentions, trying to please all the people all of the time is neat trick if you can pull it off, but this argument is reminiscent of the PvP and PvE community nerf/balance problems.

Edit: (had written argument twice in the same sentence)

SotiCoto · Oct 05, 2007, 01:55 PM // 13:55

If seven heroes were allowed.... henchies would become completely redundant.

That is my bet.
All those arguments of it making the game antisocial are bullcrap as those of us who would use 7 heroes are herohenching primarily anyway.
A-Net just love their henchies and don't want them to become totally useless.

Not only that but there is the little factor of IF ... on the odd chance... you want to team up with ONE other person and bring heroes... nobody can effectively take up half the party with their heroes alone. It has to be fairly split between the two.

Those are my only explanations.

I'm honestly not sure what more even needs be said on the subject.

Viruzzz · Oct 05, 2007, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Lets look at the basic design.
Pugging is FORCED in Presear.
-Res sig quest
-North of the wall quests
-Searing quest

only after that can you use henchmen.

It doesn't force you to do anything
I never pugged in pre-sear. never

-you can buy res sig as soon as you get to post-sear ascalon so its not forced on you, its an option.
-north of the wall quests aren't mandatory (I have for example never gone through that gate, ever) so again option, not a requirement
-searing quest isn't forced pug either. I've brought so many characters through pre-searing now, and only twice have I been with actual people, I always end up with henchmen.
and you can still just log out and log in when you get to the academy part, and you'll be able to do the next part with henchmen only.

so that argument isn't true, nowhere in the game are you forced to pug.

Cebe · Oct 05, 2007, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

If seven heroes were allowed.... henchies would become completely redundant.

Perhaps not completely. Those who only own Prophecies / Factions + GW:EotN may want, say, 2 Eles. Well they have Vekk...so they'd still need good ol' Herta or Cynn. Also, the henchmen may have elites that you can't unlock for your heroes. Zho, for instance, has Broad Head Arrow. If you don't have Factions you can't set up one of your own heroes as a BHA interrupter. I actually think Zho is very good. Thinking about Factions, I always take henchmen monks into the Imperial Sanctum mission, since they have the Celestial PvE skill, whereas hero monks do not.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't be in favour of 7 heroes. I doubt the game would become more antisocial. I for one would still prefer to go with another human with 3 heroes each than take 7 heroes of my own.

SotiCoto · Oct 05, 2007, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

For what it's worth, I wouldn't be in favour of 7 heroes. I doubt the game would become more antisocial. I for one would still prefer to go with another human with 3 heroes each than take 7 heroes of my own.

And the only issue I would have with 7 heroes is the sheer cost of kitting out that many for all my characters.

All my chars except for my Rit so far have the bare bones basic Nightfall set up: Dunkoro, Tahlkora, Melonni, Koss, Acolyte Sousuke (never Jin), Olias.
Most have Zenmai too, though not all.
Only my Ranger and Assassin even have Vekk and Ogden.

Now given that the basic full team set-up for any of my characters requires more than the simple heroes they have easy access to.... YES, henchies would be required. Only my Assassin would be fully kitted out for the job (and he still has two heroes to get: The GW:EN Ranger and Assassin heroes in the Charr Homelands)...

But that aside.... I'd still go for it if it was made available.
The fact that Gaile said that it wouldn't be however has made this entire conversation somewhat of a waste of time though.

Malice Black · Oct 05, 2007, 03:35 PM // 15:35

I'm in favor of 7 heroes, just because my guildies are rednecks and I'm on GMT, having 7 heroes will help me out when they are not around.

I don't do PuGs...because I do HM, and PuG's in HM /fail

SotiCoto · Oct 05, 2007, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

I don't do PuGs...because I do HM, and PuG's in HM /fail

Word.

123456

nugzta · Oct 05, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

I don't do PuGs...because I do HM, and PuG's in HM /fail

QFT, the same and only problem I got.

the_jos · Oct 05, 2007, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

As it currently stands only those who team with players are in that position. People who solo are at a disadvantage. With 7 heroes there would be less of a disadvantage while still allowing people to pug.

I've really, really, really tried to avoid this so far....
Want to talk about disadvantage?

Zomg, I get up to 4 bad hench and people that PuG get good humans instead.
Well, forget that.
Almost everyone on GWG and GWO complains about how bad PuGs are.
I can give a massive list of examples.
You get my latest for free:

Yesterday we (3 guildies) picked up a Wammo in Aurora Glade (NM) for mission and bonus (he also wanted both).
In the mean time, we were trying to get more guildies for some fun.
15 minutes later our guildie figured out the only char that needed that mission was not even there yet. That's 15 minutes disadvantage.

Now we start the mission, all fine.
As soon as we were in, the wammo was gone.
He was killing stuff on his own (well, that's ok). However, he was unable to kill the boss at the first stone, so went back to us.
But instead of joining he ran past us to the beginning.
We did not see him back to the bonus guy and got several 'ping position' requests.
Having him back, we progressed to the attunement area.
I was the runner, to make sure the places would be attuned, but not all.

However, for some reason mr wammo decided to attune the final portal with the 'enemy' stone. Because I had the one of our side.
So no bonus (we had almost finished off the last runners).
After cutscene we made a comment (not even that harsh) and mr wammo was gone.

Since we wanted bonus, we decided to load again, this time with the same team and Koss as replacement.
For some unknow reason, this went a lot faster than with mr wammo.
And I know for sure Koss' build was not the most effective.
Solo-killed the bonus-boss with my mesmer this time (same build as before).

So much for PuGs....

Oh, but guild teams are much better....
Yes, when you can get one together within a reasonable amount of time.
But no, you cannot start up right away.

You have to wait for ages for people to finish what they are doing, if they even want to join.
Oh, and since all are working on titles, that would mean they want to play on one character only. Meaning a possible overload of warriors or elementalists.

For some reason I get the feeling that people think that all human teams are R9+ guild teams with full unlock, the best builds/gear available and voice communication.
Well, they are not.
Ever noticed that 99% of the PuG members has a guild tag?
Would they suddenly improve when they play in a guild team?

Oh, you mean people that play in guild/alliance teams only?
Tell me, how many do you think there are?
Do you have any idea how long people that want to do a specific (hard) mission with a guild/alliance team have to wait before they can get a team?
Sure, one or two humans is possible, but full human team?

And again, no full unlocks.
A lot of times people unlock (on PvE characters) what they need as single player and not as player in a specific team build.
Meaning they have to invest gold (1k for each skill) to improve.
Leading to the common situation where they have builds that are not as efficient as could be possible with a team.

The freedom of H&H, it's incredible.
I can make a lot of different team combinations with my 25 heroes and the available hench.
Sure, I know those hench (except the EotN ones) suck, but I have full control over the 3 heroes.
I can load up any build I want and give them all the gear I need.
Since I know the hench builds, I know which ones to get in a certain situation. And how to enhance the team with hero builds around that.
And I don't have to wait for a very long time to get a party going.
I can even go afk or have a chat while playing and no-one complaining.
My H&H don't screw up, they do exactly what I want them to do.
When I have limited time, they don't mind me bailing out in the middle of a mission or area.

As you can see, it's the player with other humans that has the real disadvantage!

Bryant Again · Oct 05, 2007, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Jos makes a pretty good example of how screwed GW is.

Isileth · Oct 05, 2007, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

As you can see, it's the player with other humans that has the real disadvantage!

Monks with 5 skills. No condition removal. No e management. WoH when they dont know to use it on <50%. Aegis, PS, SoR on the same bar with no e management.
Warriors with 6 skills. Charge as the elite. No deepwound. No IAS.
Rangers with 6 skills. Practiced stance as elite....with kindle arrows. No interrupts.

How can you possibly suggest that an average team of players is worse than this?
Yes there are bad teams. These dont represent the average though (Im not suggesting the average is great however but better than henchies!).

A player using henchies gets the same poor quality everytime. Yes in a pug you might have bad teams, you can also have very good teams.

Are you saying you have never teamed with someone with a full bar? Now if thats the case perhaps you have a point. But somehow I doubt it is the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

The freedom of H&H, it's incredible.
I can make a lot of different team combinations with my 25 heroes and the available hench.
Sure, I know those hench (except the EotN ones) suck, but I have full control over the 3 heroes.
I can load up any build I want and give them all the gear I need.
Since I know the hench builds, I know which ones to get in a certain situation. And how to enhance the team with hero builds around that.
And I don't have to wait for a very long time to get a party going.
I can even go afk or have a chat while playing and no-one complaining.
My H&H don't screw up, they do exactly what I want them to do.
When I have limited time, they don't mind me bailing out in the middle of a mission or area.

Im starting to think even you can see why people solo!
They are all reasons people have stated for wanting 7 heroes. Can we do all that now? Yes we can.
Is it the same as a team of even an average pug? No.

Most areas we cant even have 64 skills (8 player areas of course).
We are forced to pick from several awful builds (Would I take that hundred blades W/Mo with HB over Devona? Yeah I would if I was available to pug. The builds are shocking!).

Even in GW:EN the henchmen bars suck. Monks with ZB which they dont know how to use and so blow the energy for example. Going past that however having 1 set build doesnt work everywhere. Maybe I want a BSurge ele, maybe I want an SS warder, maybe I want an SF nuker, maybe SH, maybe a shatterstone spiker, maybe a master of magic smiter?

Why should we not be able to play what we want? Why should we be forced to play at a disadvantage?

Loviatar · Oct 05, 2007, 04:51 PM // 16:51

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Ok im just going to reply to the points rather than the posters here because there is a lot to quote otherwise.

First of, it being used for farming. I honestly dont get this, someone said having heroes gives you a higher drop rate. Heroes take drops just like henchmen and just like players.You wouldnt get any more drops using heroes.

that was mine and i got that from experts which i am not.

they stated months ago they would very happily trade all 4 henchmen for one additional hero.

they stated (the actual experts) that under the right conditions a properly set up hero with the correct runes/insig/skillbar would be much more effective than the 4 henchies that single additional hero would replace.

consider that carefully please as i am sure Anet did.

high end farming spot of choice

1. you + 3 heroes + 4 henchies loot scaling is not counted as you have a full party of 8 and you get your share as everybody else gets their share

2. you +4 heroes +3 EMPTY SLOTS loot scaling kicks in and normal loot is reduced but all those high end goodies on the exempted list still drop full rate with the party cut down to just above half.

that is where you have the extra chance at more loot.

a hero will take his/her share only if present to grab it.

those 3 empty slots give you a better chance at the missing slot drops which are still being dropped and have to go to someone in the group.

Isileth · Oct 05, 2007, 04:57 PM // 16:57

I dont see how that is different from 5 players +3 empty slots.

Besides players would farm much better than heroes. While ive never tried it im fairly certain a hero couldnt run a farming build like a 55 monk or whatever else people farm with now.

So this can only count for general play, well thats still the same as 5 players. The whole point is heroes ARE better than henchies. But players are better than heroes. So its not really going to result in anything. Besides why would I get the option of an improved team to cut it down? I want my full team of 8 custom builds so I can run around places like anyone in a team.

lyra_song · Oct 05, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Can anyone argue in favor of 7 heroes without using the word want.

That means you can't use any of the following reasons:
-Let me play how I want.
-I want to use more heroes, since I have 25 but can only use 3.
-I want to play with custom builds/experiment.
-I don't want to play with people.

Please show me that 7 heroes is required. Show me what's broken. Show me:
-Areas of the game where H/H are insufficient. Excluding HM and Elite areas, since having 7 heroes in those areas wouldn't fix the problems or design implements that make those areas impossible to solo.
-H/H offer no advantages and only disadvantages.

Having more hero slots would be AMAZING. Why would I argue against something beneficial to me as well? Because I don't see it as justified enough to warrant using up Anet's resources or changing the game significantly for something that can't be done already.

Loviatar · Oct 05, 2007, 05:23 PM // 17:23

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

I dont see how that is different from 5 players +3 empty slots.

in either case you are having drops for 8 being distributed to a party of 5.

loot scaling exemptions

Quote:

Loot scaling was introduced in the April 19, 2007 game update. The amount of drops you get are scaled to your party size.
The following are affected by loot scaling:

Common (white) items
Gold
The following are exempt from loot scaling:

Skill Tomes
Scrolls
Dye
Rare materials, such as Ectoplasm
Gemstones from the Domain of Anguish
All other rare (gold) items
All unique (green) items
Special event items

drops for 8 distributed to a party of 5

it does not matter what those 5 slots are filled with as those 5 will randomly split what those 3 emply slots would have gotten if they had been filled

Isileth · Oct 05, 2007, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Why is it a want? Because its a game. People wont die if we dont get this. People will perhaps not spend any more money on GW related products, but im fairly sure everyone will still be alive and relatively healthy.

Does that mean we shouldnt ask for it? Does that mean its a pointless request that wont effect or change anything? No.

We want this because it will allow a big portion of the playerbase to be able to play more of the game.

"h/h offers no advantages and only disadvantages"

No one said that. It offers an advantage over no h/h.
But maybe we should limit players as well. How about players can only take 6 skills max. Its better than no skills right?

"Areas of the game where h/h are insufficient"

So you want to limit me by not letting me talk about the areas where h/h are insufficient?

I dont see why you think 7 heroes wouldnt work in HM. Some of the elite areas that requires the group to split obviousely cant be done. But HM doesnt require that.

Besides its not about them being insufficient. Its about the fact someone going with h/h is forced into playing at a much lower level than a team.

I also dont see it as a significant change as we already have heroes and we already have teams of 7 AI. Its not like they would need to create the whole hero system again as they already have it.

Edit for Loviatars post

Perhaps you missed the context of my comment.

Take 2 teams.
Team A has 5 players
Team B has 1 player and 4 heroes.

Player 1 on both teams will still get the same average ammount of drops.

The point is a player with heroes wont get anymore drops than a team of players. So there is no advantage gained.

MudBone · Oct 05, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

I would love to go with just Heros, I normally go H/H but the Henchies AI is a bit dumber than your Heros AI. I wouldn't mind going as a group of real people controlling a character, but, this really needs to be done using voice communication in-game and not everyone has/uses Teamspeak

, Ventrilo or whatever. The team/typing interface don't work for me because of a disability that limits the use of my hands/fingers